Pip Landers-Letts is an emerging queer author of contemporary sapphic fiction. Her work explores themes of love, loss and transformation, by blending emotional honesty with warm, character-driven storytelling. Her published titles include The Weight of What Was (2024), Pyg (2025), and Chameleon (2026). In 2025, she won the Kindle Storyteller Award for Pyg.

Grace

So firstly, can I just say how much fun I had reading this book. I adored it. I just wanted to get my little preamble out of the way because I loved it so much.

So thank you so much for writing this, firstly.

 

Pip

That’s amazing. That’s lovely feedback. Thank you.

 

Grace

I was giggling. No, was kicking my feet.

I also love, again, Alice and Ash. Their dynamic was beautiful. Right from the beginning, you wanted them to get together so much.

 

Pip

Do you know what? I didn’t. I didn’t want them to get together.

 

Grace

Really?

 

Pip

Honestly, that was never my intention. I wanted them to have this chemistry, and I hadn’t planned for them to get together.

Right. So when that happened, I’m like, stop.

 

Grace

You’re joking.

 

Pip

So when that happened, I’m like, stop. No, you’re not supposed to. Don’t do that. You’re not supposed to be doing that.

I couldn’t keep them apart. And that sounds as bonkers as a writer can sound, but that is truly how I felt when I was writing it.

I didn’t intend that to happen. Yeah.

 

Grace

But that’s perfect. That’s such a good sign, though. Palpable chemistry drove them towards it.

 

Pip

Completely, yeah. I mean, the most I wanted them to do was have a near kiss.

I’d even written the ending of that book before I’d written the middle. So I wrote the first chapter, the last chapter, then I wrote everything in the middle.

I had to change the ending because, obviously, they’d done more than just kiss.

 

Grace

Well, yeah, thank God as well.

Because that’s also quite taunting sometimes, when you come across queer novels where they’re sort of looking at each other and never doing anything. So it’s really refreshing as well in Pyg to have such active queer joy.

So thank you.

 

Pip

Thank you for reading it and enjoying it as intended. But yeah, I couldn’t stop them. They were the unstoppable force, for sure.

Sometimes, as an author, you just need to get out of your characters’ way. That’s it.

 

Grace

Just to get back to Pyg and its beginning stages, I was wondering, because it shares with Pygmalion, but I didn’t actually know much about Pygmalion at all, and so I was wondering if you could sort of explain the relationship between the play and your book?

 

Pip

Yeah, sure. So I studied Pygmalion at university when I did my bachelor’s degree. And my degree was in Drama and Theology, so you might see a bit of both of those things coming through in my writing.

But I studied Pygmalion then, and it obviously just stuck with me. I hadn’t thought about it for years and years, and then it just popped into my head one day. I can’t really remember exactly the thought, the train of thought, that got me to it. But I just started thinking about a character called George and this idea of a dog called Pyg, which is obviously quite crucial to one of the stories in the book.

So I think when I started setting out writing it, I just saw the kind of framework of the original text being like this quiet but important ghost in the room. I didn’t really set out to retell the story.

But I was fascinated by the core idea of Pygmalion. So how it’s the tension between who we are, who we’re told to be, and what we might become under someone else’s gaze.

And how Higgins shapes Eliza, I think Fran tries to mould Alice in the same sort of way. So I just think of it as a deconstructed retelling.

As you know, Pyg is a story within a story within a story. And it’s Alice’s present-day transformation framed by George’s story, and then all the references to Shaw’s text as well.

So that’s a really convoluted way of saying I didn’t intend to do a retelling of Pygmalion; it just happened.

 

Grace

No, that was beautiful. And I like what you said there about Fran’s sort of dangerous effect on Alice, because you really felt that in the novel.

And when I was following Fran, the horror and the stress was really palpable. What was that like to write, to really step into that?

 

Pip

She was, she’s absolutely my favourite character to write. She’s awful, like truly awful.

And I think first draft, I thought, have I created a caricature? She’s so awful that she’s unbelievable. But when I had beta readers, they actually came back and said, no, she’s great.

She feels real. Like, you feel the jeopardy when you’re around her. You feel her potency, you know, people’s potent attraction to someone like that because she just has this effect on people around her.

But equally, she’s awful to everybody. So she picks you up and she drops you right down.

I think being in her presence was challenging in itself. And I could come away feeling some of the frustration and, I suppose, concern that Alice has for her own wellbeing around someone like that. And like, why does she affect me like this? So I felt it too. I felt it through Alice.

I’ve written what I see as the kind of prequel sequel to Pyg. That’s the book that I published this year, and it set out to be Francesca’s origin story.

But I was trying to write it from her perspective and quickly learned I couldn’t write her perspective at all.

 

Grace

I mean, it would be taxing, like, mentally, to step into that. Just the sheer hatred she has for other people.

 

Pip

Yeah, I couldn’t do it.

 

Grace

No, I completely, completely understand that. And I really loved the way you put Fran in a room with Ash as well.

We could almost witness Fran from the outside. I love that. And so well done. Top marks is what I’m saying. It’s amazing.

 

Pip

Thank you. I think Ash was very triggering for Francesca.

So, sorry, the story I published this year, Chameleon, is the origin story. So it starts back in the 80s, and it’s when Francesca was at university. She’s Francesca, and obviously she becomes Fran in Pyg.

I kind of now spend more time with her as Francesca, and I knew her as a young woman. She was just as awful then.

But I think I tried to, in this next story, create, I suppose, to show people more of her vulnerability. So she does have some, believe it or not. And she hides it. She hides it well.

 

Grace

Wow, I’m really looking forward to reading that, especially if we get some of the sort of context. That’s really cool, but scary as well, in a good way.

I was thinking about the time zones of your novel, and we have a period in the 60s and also in the 50s. I was thinking about the contrast between that, and then we get this really modern, vibrant feel.

So how did you sort of step into those different styles? What were you listening to or reading at the time?

 

Pip

I would love to tell you I have reference points for these, but I don’t. I saw this question and I was thinking, what can I say that’s going to make me sound really smart, other than I wanted the old story to feel like this kind of sepia-toned version of the present-day story, to give it this quality.

And so I guess I drew inspiration from things that I’ve seen and read in the past, but there was nothing specific that I sat down and immersed myself in, other than conversations with my mum, who grew up in the 60s.

I’m like, is this accurate? Is this how it felt back then, you know, back when everything was black and white? And then she’s like, you’re being cheeky, but yes, you’ve nailed it.

I just spent time around her, listening to her storytelling. And my nan was such a great storyteller as well. So I used to spend a lot of time with her, and she’d always tell me about when she grew up and how things were different.

So I think just immersing myself in their culture was really important. And yeah, that’s really how it came to be.

But I’m pleased that the two felt so distinctive for you, because that’s always what I set out to do. And I did the same thing to myself with the follow-up, which is Chameleon. That’s set between the present day and the 1980s, and I actually did spend a lot of time researching 1988 because I was only five.

 

Grace

That’s so cool. I mean, it’s amazing to hear that you developed that through conversations, but you really get the sense that someone is talking in your ear as you read.

So, hey, it worked beautifully.

 

Pip

I changed that as well, I think, to really make the two distinctive. I use third person in the present day, and I use first person in the past, which I think, for George’s story, I wanted it to sound younger.

And I think a lot of YA has a younger voice. So I thought in the past, it’s very much a young man speaking to you. And in the present day, it’s a story of Alice, which is a bit more, say, sophisticated.

But yeah, there was a distinction there. And I’ve done that with Chameleon as well. The past chapters are written in first person and from another character’s perspective.

 

Grace

That’s really cool. Do you write them in sort of chunks? Will you do, okay, first person today, third tomorrow, that sort of thing?

 

Pip

I think I would make my life a hell of a lot easier if I did, but I write it as it’s happening because I’m a discovery writer.

And then I do that thing. I don’t know if you do it, Grace, but where you sit down to write for 20 minutes and then you zone out four hours later. You’re like, whoa, what just happened?

But I just go with it. I plot, and they just, as we’ve already established, take over and do what they want to do. So I don’t know.

I’m just the typist half the time.

 

Grace

I love that. And also, it really helps with the characters. They feel like organic people.

And so that makes sense that that’s your process.

 

Pip

Absolutely, yeah. The voice is in my head, right?

 

Grace

Amazing. Okay, I also wanted to talk about the Fran versus Ash, like, sort of two sides of a very different spectrum, let’s just say.

How important was it for you to have Alice experience this kind of positive kind of love?

 

Pip

I think, yeah, I think she needed that to heal.

So I never pitch Pyg as a romance because, even though it does follow some of the romance arc, I always pitch it as a transformation story with a side of romance.

But I think for Alice to heal, because of everything she’s gone through, she needs a dose of healthy love.

And, you know, Ash has also been through some stuff in her own past that has healed her, and she needs to heal from it. And finally, she’s coming out of the other side of that.

And I think they were just the perfect people to come together. They weren’t each other’s type. They weren’t meant to fall for each other, but they found each other at exactly the right time.

I have had a couple of reviews where people have said they didn’t feel like it was healthy for them to have got together at the stage they did. It was too soon. They were still healing, but, you know, they were ready for love.

 

Grace

Exactly. There was a joke about that, which I also enjoyed, about like lesbians moving really quick.

 

Pip

Oh yeah, the U-Haul trip.

 

Grace

So I’m like, exactly. You were sort of aware of it through the writing.

 

Pip

Yeah. And I didn’t want that kind of really cheesy, I’m not going to spoil the end of… I didn’t want that really kind of cheesy, like, ‘Oh, we’ve said I love you. Let’s move in. Let’s have four cats.’ It wasn’t really that.

I do plan to write a little sequel to it, to be honest, because I think I’d like to see them six months later.

 

Grace

Me too. That sounds fantastic.

 

Pip

And I am hoping to do a special edition around the time of the Kindle Storyteller Award this year. So I’m looking at doing something with cute sprayed edges and some foils, you know, get her a glow-up.

 

Grace

That’s so exciting. Oh my days.

 

Pip

So yeah, I might chuck a few extra chapters at the end.

 

Grace

Yeah, please. I mean, you mentioned the Kindle Storyteller Award just then, and I was wondering if you could talk about the process into winning. Congratulations, firstly.

And secondly, what was that journey like?

 

Pip

Thank you. Well, I’ve just about stopped pinching myself. That it happened.

 

Grace

Hell yeah, it did.

 

Pip

Yeah.

And I’m still recovering from the shock. But I think I’ve settled into feeling like, yeah, I do belong in this space. I have been validated. Happy days.

But for me, I think because my journey into publishing was one where I chose to open the door myself, I was standing waiting at the door, like literally, like my cat does. She stands there waiting to be let outside, just waiting and waiting and waiting, and then I let her out. I am the one that enables her.

And I was standing there waiting at a door for someone to let me in, right? Are you going to let me into this room? I really want to publish my book.

And then I realised I could open the door myself, and I just walked into the room. Oh, okay. And then I needed somebody, which was the Kindle Storyteller Awards, to say, ‘Hey, you’re welcome here. This is cool.’

And that’s what I felt like. It was a huge shot of validation.

There are occasionally times where I feel like, you know, I’m not supposed to be in the room without a tray of drinks or a tray of canapés, offering them to the real authors. But no, I’m here. We all get that, right?

 

Grace

Oh my God, that feeling is always there.

 

Pip

I don’t know if it will go away. I don’t know. What do we have to win? What do we have to do to prove ourselves? How many publishing deals or whatever?

But yeah, I think…

 

Grace

And you deserve it, like, massively. The novel was such, such a pleasant experience. Like I had, again, as I said, so much fun.

So you definitely should be in that room.

 

Pip

Oh, that’s so good to hear.

So yeah, I think, just to like, I suppose, a funny aside about when I found out about being a finalist for the award. I got a call from the team at KDP, and they were like, ‘Oh, so we just want to let you know that the Storyteller Award that you entered for, you’re one of the five finalists.’

And I’m like, ‘Yeah, sure, scammer, whatever.’

She’s like, ‘No, no, really, really, this is real.’

And they sent me a follow-up email, and I’m like, I did not believe it. Like, I wouldn’t. It was right up until the day of the ceremony. I’m still going, ‘This is a scam. I have been scammed. I’m now… someone is going to have a massive laugh when I walk into Amazon HQ and try to get in for the awards ceremony.’

No, they let me in. I actually won it.

So yeah, it’s definitely something I would strongly urge people publishing through KDP’s platform to do, is to enter their novel into the award as well, because I’d forgotten I’d even done it.

And there we go. Here I am.

 

Grace

Incredible. It’s so cool.

And I read in the acknowledgements that you had a team of beta readers, and you were talking to so many people. I just love that sense of community and that writing community you got.

 

Pip

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

 

Grace

And so how important was that while you were writing it? Was it mainly afterwards, or was it during?

 

Pip

So, Pyg is my second novel. When I wrote my first novel, I had a team of alpha readers. I didn’t even know what an alpha reader was, but I just had people reading at the time I was writing.

Like, I’m literally pulling off a chapter and going, ‘Okay, here’s another one. Tell me if it’s any good.’

So I didn’t feel the need to do that so much with Pyg. But I also went through a whole critique, nine months’ worth of critique groups with my first novel, just to finesse it and turn it into something worthy of sharing.

With Pyg, less need, but I did build up a strong team of beta readers. I say team, I had about four beta readers for Pyg. And then I had a team of ARC readers pre-launch as well.

But yeah, just that sense of community. I’ve spent, invested way too much time in Instagram, where I’ve kind of met a lot of like-minded people in the Bookstagram community, and just tried to build a bit of a platform, a bit of enthusiasm for my work.

And a couple of super fans, I would like to say. I’m not Taylor Swift, but, you know, that’s it. That’s it. I think they’ll be there.

 

Grace

You’re rolling out the world tour. Let’s go.

Definitely, that’s really cool. I like that sense of mutual encouragement, and that everyone is in it together and they want to read good stories. We’re invested in it, and that’s really cool.

 

Pip

Definitely. I’ve got writers who I feel like are author friends now, who feel like we’re very much on a journey together, people at the same stage as me.

We share work with each other. I’ve just got a new critique partner as well, which is cool. We’ve got somebody where we should be exchanging betas with each other.

Like, we know, we understand each other’s voices. We know what we want to achieve. They’re not trying to change my writing. They just understand me. They understand what I’m trying to communicate.

And I think that trust is so important.

 

Grace

Yeah, of course. And when it comes to trusting yourself as a kind of editor before you send it off, how do you know what works?

Do you have an instinct? Is it sort of an editing brain you step into?

 

Pip

Yeah, I’ve definitely changed my process from when I first started.

So I first started, I must have spent about two months on my first chapters, like the first 10 chapters. You just keep editing and editing. Oh, that’s not right. You’re trying to find your voice, I think.

Whereas now, I just tend to… I’ve started recently writing in sprints. And my first edit will be, I’ve just got to tidy the hell out of this thing. I’ve got to make sure it’s following the shape that I’ve set out for it.

Like, has it hit those kind of key plot points that I wanted to hit? So I kind of look at the shape first, and then I won’t get into sort of line-editing stuff later.

And I usually send it off to betas going, ‘There’s a load of stuff in here I will have missed. I know. Don’t worry too much about it. Just tell me if it makes sense generally and do you like the story?’ Then we’ll get into the nuts and bolts.

And yeah, my wife as well. My wife should have been like a proofreader in another life. She does a lot of policy work in her job, and she’s so good at spotting mistakes. So she is like my final, final proof check.

If it doesn’t get past her, it’s not getting out there.

 

Grace

That’s such a beautiful title. She’s like, this is the last quality control check. Let’s go.

 

Pip

Yeah, right. I don’t credit her, though.

I feel really bad. I mean, she gets the acknowledgement at the start. She gets the dedication, but I haven’t credited her for her proofreading skills.

 

Grace

Oh no, that’s okay. Hey, I’m sure she loves reading it.

And yeah, it’s incredible. I was thinking about that sort of community-based stuff, and how you really feel like Pyg is beloved by, as you said, fans. People are loving it.

How do you, when you’re writing your next project, sort of filter their comments or queries and make it the project you want to do, not what you’re catering to?

 

Pip

Of course — I’ve changed the quotation marks to single quotation marks while keeping the wording and formatting the same.

Yeah, that’s a really good point, because I very much felt like there was a big difference between my first book and Pyg.

I did something completely, I suppose, off the wall. And at the beginning, when I was telling my wife and telling my mum what I was writing, they were like, ‘What are you writing?’ Because I’d stopped doing the alpha thing. I’m like, ‘I’m not sharing it with you at the start,’ because they were so different.

And then I started telling them what it was going to be. They were like, ‘Oh, okay, well, are you sure that’s what you want to write? You don’t want to write another love story?’

My first was just a normal romance.

Like, ‘No, I don’t. I want to write this. This book is talking to me.’

And they’re like, ‘Well, what’s this weird thing about a man and a pig?’

I’m like, ‘No, just trust me. Just trust me. Okay, I’ve got something here.’

And I think, again, I had to do the same. So, you know, people had an idea of what they wanted when I finished Pyg. They wanted more Ash and Alice.

And I was like, ‘No, you’re having more Francesca. You are getting more of the psycho.’

Because that’s what I want to write. I want her origin story.

And so I took a character from Pyg that is basically… It’s a story of Catherine Truscott, who was Alice’s boss. And it’s her story.

So it’s her transformation story. I took her, and people were like, ‘Well, why her?’

And I’m like, ‘Because she is still speaking to me.’

And I just shut out everybody else’s feedback and said, ‘I am actually going to write the story I want to write.’

And that’s what I did. I did it. And I’m doing it again.

 

Grace

That’s so cool.

 

Pip

I’m not listening to anybody. They’re like, ‘No, don’t write that. Write this.’

No, I’m writing what I want to write because I’m going to have more fun doing that.

 

Grace

It’s great, like an instinct to just say, ‘No, this is my passion.’

Because sometimes you can tell if a writer is being half-hearted or just catering to what they think people want.

So I think that’s grand that you’re following that gut instinct, which tells you this will be interesting.

And that’s so cool.

 

Pip

Yeah, and I think there will always be people that don’t appreciate it for what it is.

Like, there were people that loved my first book that kind of went, ‘Oh, Pyg wasn’t really for me. I preferred the love story.’

And I’m like, there is a love story in it, but, you know, there’s other things.

I think it’s been misunderstood on a couple of occasions because I’ve had, like, ‘Oh, there was too much about that old man.’

I’m like, yeah, that’s… oh, he’s so important to the story. Alice would not have had her transformation without George. He was absolutely pivotal because it gave her an opportunity to focus on something external to herself.

She had to care for somebody else, and that was crucial.

So yeah, I hate it when things are misunderstood.

 

Grace

It’s so frustrating. But that’s why it’s great that you have that instinct that goes, ‘I’m going to quiet it out and just plough through.’

 

Pip

And now, whenever I get negative feedback, I go, ‘Storyteller Award.’

 

Grace

Yes. Kindle says No.

 

Pip

Yeah, yeah. It kind of lasts like five minutes, and then I go, ‘Oh, maybe I should listen to the feedback.’

No, don’t do that.

 

Grace

No. Well, I’m really excited now that you’ve mentioned Francesca’s sort of transformation. I can’t wait, as I said before.

 

Pip

I had so much fun writing Chameleon because I think I feel like I really found my voice with Pyg. And in Chameleon, I was like, right, now I’m going to sing.

This is it. I’m going to make this story, like, everything I want to say. And it’s funny, it is sad, it is a performance in words.

Because the other thing, after the Storyteller Award, I’d already commissioned it, but the audio of Pyg was released, and I enjoyed my narrator’s performance of Pyg so much. I felt like I was, in entire parts, writing Chameleon for her narration.

Like, this book is a performance. And I made it so that the words would be something that were really good to act.

And I’m excited to say it has just been recorded last week. So we’re coming soon in audio.

 

Grace

No way. That’s so exciting.

I’m glad you mentioned the element of performance because I was thinking this would make a great TV show. I was wondering if you had any actors in mind, or any sort of setting, location, that sort of feel.

 

Pip

Yeah, I mean, I am totally open if anybody wants to get in touch about making a TV show or a film, even a film. Like, yeah, that’s fine.

But yeah, from a setting perspective, it has to be Leamington. The books are ingrained in Leamington Spa.

And I actually, I’ve never lived in Leamington. I’ve lived in Warwickshire for fifteen years now, but Leamington was always such a lovely place for us to go and have lunch and just walk around and visit.

So I thought, let’s set a book somewhere that’s nice to go and have lunch. So when I’m researching it, let’s go to a nice lunch spot.

So yeah, I think Leamington for the film location.

And in terms of who would take those roles, I always in my head sort of had a young Marilyn Monroe for Alice, but obviously that’s not possible.

So maybe, like, Sarah Paulson, if she’s available. But Francesca, to me, has always been Kristen Scott Thomas. I have had no one else in my head other than her.

She is the perfect Francesca.

 

Grace

That makes a lot of sense.

 

Pip

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Slow Horses, the TV show.

She is Diana Taverner. She’s perfect, that character.

 

Grace

Oh my God, this makes so much sense now in terms of her coldness, but you’re like, how are you getting away with this?

 

Pip

And yeah, people are so drawn to her as well, though. It’s like, yeah, she can come into my life and be cold with me anytime she likes. That’s fine.

Like, I will take that punishment.

 

Grace

Did you have that in your head while writing?

 

Pip

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, so I think we might have been watching Slow Horses around the time of writing. I’m like, I think actually when I started writing already, and then, like, kind of mid-novel construction — that’s not a word — but yeah, kind of at the midpoint, I started watching Slow Horses and I’m like, ‘Oh, it’s Francesca.’

And then, yeah, it’s definitely, I think when I was fine-tuning the words, I probably added a few sort of, yeah, Diana Taverner elements to her.

 

Grace

I love that.

It’s also great when you’re, if you’re ever stuck or you reach a block, to explore other media forms, like Slow Horses. If you’re sort of drenched with the books, you’re like, ‘I can’t take it.’

 

Pip

Yeah, completely.

I find it, yeah, I find it hard to read when I’m in that kind of… immersed in my own storytelling. So yeah, I think watching something and music as well.

I always have a playlist for the book, and it’s usually things that I’ve been listening to whilst I’ve been writing. So yeah, definitely come up with a playlist every time.

 

Grace

That’s so cool. Do you have any songs specifically that you associate with the characters, or the certain storylines, or even moments in the novel?

 

Pip

I think the main song for Pyg with me was Griff’s ‘Last Night Mascara’. Because just lyrically, it’s perfect for Alice.

It’s like that first scene, that she’s running away from something. And yeah, it’s just this, it’s very visceral, that feeling at the beginning of the book.

 

Grace

Wow, again, TV show, let’s go. That’s incredible.

And I was thinking about your sort of maybe non-conventional journey into publishing. Was there any point in which you could use some advice that you didn’t have at the time, that you wish you had?

 

Pip

I think I would say, to be honest, like, it’s so hard to find the time to write a book, especially when you work full time.

It is so hard to find that time to sit down and go, ‘Okay, I’m going to write this. I feel like I’ve got a story in me.’

So many people say, ‘I’ve got a story in me. I’ve got a book in me,’ and they never find the time. They’re waiting for that perfect time to write.

And my advice would be: there is no perfect time.

You just carve out time. Fifteen minutes a day, whatever it is, you just start.

You cannot, they always say, ‘Can I edit a blank page?’ And I love that, because I remind myself of that every time I sit down going, ‘Yeah, I’m just going to go and do this instead.’

Write, write the thing, because then you can edit the thing and then make it good.

But yeah, there is no perfect time. Just crack on.

 

Grace

No, I like that.

And you’re right, you can’t, if the raw material is not there, you can’t make it perfect anyway, because there’s nothing to improve.

 

Pip

Yeah. As I said before, I’ve recently discovered sprints, just trying to do, like, 20 to 30 minutes at a time.

And I still work full time at the moment, so trying to carve out the time to do that every day is really hard.

So taking 15 to 30 minutes to sit down and crack out as many words as I can. I haven’t even read it back yet.

The manuscript I’m writing at the moment is probably pure chaos. Like, I have a plot. I have an outline. I’m just sitting down, and every time I sit down to write, something new happens.

I’m like, ‘Oh, just fell in a puddle that wasn’t meant to happen.’

 

Grace

But that’s great advice for people, especially if you get so in your head, you’re thinking, ‘There’s no way I can even start.’

 

Pip

You could do it on a lunch break, like, yeah, just open a blank document, write anywhere, on scraps of paper, like that’s just it.

And then the more, when you start, like, the more momentum you start to get.

And I had a really great piece of advice at a conference I was at, the Self-Publishing Show Live, last month. And there was a really great talk, and the advice was like: set yourself those sprints, right, and write and write and write.

And as soon as the time is up, just stop, even if you’re in the middle of a sentence, in the middle of a word. Just stop.

And then you’re basically like parking the car on a hill, so when you go to start again, you can just take the brake off. You don’t have to worry about, like, you know, revving up the engine. You just take the brake off and you just carry on from where you left off.

And I thought, ‘I can’t. I can’t do that. What monster would stop in the middle of a word?’

But yeah, turns out I can, and it’s really effective.

 

Grace

Yeah, I like that because you trap the emotion, like, halfway, I can imagine with a lot of scenes.

 

Pip

Yeah. And you think to yourself, like, ‘Why would I finish here? Because, like, I’m in such… I’m in the zone. Like, I’m just picking up.’

No, finish because, yeah, right there, right there. It’s good.

 

Grace

Honestly, I’m going to get on that.

But I was thinking about the certain emotional beats of Pyg. Did you know you were going to have to hit them? Did you have a general arc? You know how they say it, the conflict arc.

But I noticed George was really helpful in that way because he kept sort of bringing Alice into these crazy scenarios, especially with Ash.

So that was great. But did you have anything in mind?

 

Pip

So I did, when I started Pyg, I did a writing course. It was a Curtis Brown writing course, it was the David Nicholls one, because he is my favourite author ever.

So I did that writing course, and I followed his plot point kind of example. I remember there was, like, a midpoint, the inciting incident, the midpoint, and all of the plot points.

I mapped them out and I went, ‘This is roughly what’s going to happen here.’

Obviously, it just went out the window when the characters took over, but I did revisit it and go, ‘Yeah, I hit that. I hit that. I hit that.’

And that’s… I can’t, I suppose, feel too inhibited by setting something out too rigidly, because I feel like it traps my own creative process.

Because I am such, like, a chaos goblin when it comes to sitting down and just letting the characters take over.

Like, was it… discovery writer. That’s the word, not chaos goblin.

Two different things.

 

Grace

I mean, both cool.

 

Pip

Sure, I’ll take them both.

 

Grace

No, I really like that.

And also, you do have to have some kind of rule to then break it. Because if you are a discovery writer, to then find your way through it, you can feel a bit cheeky being like, ‘I know I’m supposed to hit the conflict, but I’m actually going to hit it in a chapter’s time.’

So it’s fun.

 

Pip

That’s another thing that could put someone off sitting down and starting, like thinking, ‘Oh, I need to follow the rules. I need to get this right.’

Don’t worry about that till later.

Like, I have a fantastic editor. She will tell me if I’ve messed this up. She will tell me if I’ve missed the beats.

Like, I trust in the process, and I trust that I have read enough and absorbed enough, you know, different books and shows and whatever else, to understand the emotional beats that I need to land.

Like, I trust that it’s in me now.

I know, I know what I’m doing. I feel like I know what I’m doing.

So, hopefully I know what I’m doing.

 

Grace

No, you definitely do.

 

Pip

If not, I’ve convinced a lot of people that I that I do.

 

Grace

You referenced your editor there.

But in terms of self-publishing, or, you know, non-traditional publishing, how do you find your editor? Do they come out and seek you, or do you get paired separately? What’s that like?

 

Pip

So I have found my editor through the Reedsy platform. Other platforms are available.

Yeah, Reedsy has been really good for me. So I put a job on Reedsy, and different people bid on that job.

And yeah, I basically got to hire who I thought I most wanted to work with. And we’re such a good match. Like, it’s been brilliant.

She’s edited all three books now and will continue to edit my books as long as she wants me.

 

Grace

That’s so good.

 

Pip

We actually met for the first time in person earlier this year, and it was so cool. It was really good.

But I was a bit shy because I’m thinking, like, ‘You’ve looked into my soul.’ Like, I feel like, you know, you know, I can’t spell certain words. You know, I don’t know how to use commas. Like, you know, things about me that other people don’t.

So yeah, it’s good.

It’s a very different, it’s a strange relationship, isn’t it, with your editor, I think.

 

Grace

Yeah, no, totally.

But I love the fact that you can sort of see the options for editing if you’re sort of self-publishing. Like, as you said, you really went through and chose the best match for you.

So that’s lovely.

 

Pip

Yeah, I have chosen. Like, I think of myself actually now as probably a bit of a control freak when it comes to my work, because the beauty of independent publishing is that you choose everything.

And I also like, even when it comes to the editing process, I choose what advice I take and what advice I don’t. And it’s… I have so much say in the end result.

Obviously, naturally, I listen to everything my editor says because she’s right and I’m not. But, you know, we’ll have a healthy discussion about things.

And the same with the cover design as well. Like, my designer, I did originally put the job out on Reedsy and then ended up commissioning someone I’ve met through another author.

But yeah, we had lots of discussions around what it was going to look like. We have, like, creative sessions. I give her my manuscript. She works from that, all of my ideas into, like, a Pinterest board.

So, like, I have a big part in this process. And ultimately I have to say, ‘This is what it’s going to look like.’

Same with my audiobook narrator. I just commissioned who I wanted to work with.

So I built a beautiful cast of people to work with, which is cool.

 

Grace

Oh, love that.

And you can build such direct, like, sort of relationships and just filter in ideas even. That’s incredible. I love that.

Have you got any sort of advice for people who might be a bit afraid of self-publishing, or might be a bit afraid even to start writing?

Is there any sort of advice you could offer?

 

Pip

I think, in terms of starting writing, I think fear is natural in what we do because, like, yeah, it’s a vulnerable thing to do, putting words on a page, and they are a part of you.

They will reflect you in some way, even though they’re clearly, if you’re writing fiction, clearly not real.

And no, that character is not me. And no, that did not happen.

But it is a vulnerable thing to do and a vulnerable thing to share, so it can feel scary.

But actually, if you want to share your work with the world, just starting off slow is a really good way of doing that.

Share it with one trusted person, get some feedback. And by trusted person, I mean somebody that, I guess, understands what you’re trying to achieve and doesn’t just want to change the story for their own purposes or want it to sound like the sort of things they read.

So somebody that gets what you’re trying to do and reads the sort of books that you’re trying to write.

So yeah, I think: feel the fear and do it anyway.

Is it Susan Jeffers who said that? I think it’s important. Fear is natural.

And fear, if it’s worth doing, then it’s going to be a little bit scary.

And then, in terms of publishing, I think there are definitely advantages and disadvantages to both traditional and independent. So it’s really understanding the route that’s right for you.

There’s a lot of misconceptions around independent publishing. Still, I hear them and I’m like, ‘Yeah, okay, fine.’

But it’s a choice. And for a lot of people, it’s not just a, ‘Oh, I didn’t get that deal. I’m going to do this.’

For a lot of people, it’s the right route for them. And if you like that control and if you want to have ultimate say over what your work looks like, then cool.

But you’re going to have a much harder journey in terms of getting your book distributed, potentially. You know, it’s harder for me to get into bookstores, for instance.

But yeah, I think there’s a lot of similarities in the journeys as well.

And there’s lots of people doing hybrid also, that could become an option later on.

So I’m, yeah, I’m not a guru. I don’t know all the things, but I know what I know.

 

Grace

You sound very knowledgeable. I’m learning so much.

And you mentioned sort of, like, misconceptions or myths. Any sort of particular ones that are really great on you that you want to sort of take apart in terms of independent publishing?

 

Pip

I think I did the one you hear over and over again. It’s like, ‘Oh, well, you didn’t make it, so you did it yourself.’

And it’s like, no, that’s not true. That certainly wasn’t true for my journey.

I said to myself, I was going to query, do 100 queries, get to 100 queries, and then if I didn’t get a bite from an agent, I would stop.

What in reality happened is I got to around 40 queries. I had a very promising nibble from an agent, a couple of agents actually.

But one of them turned into quite a hard bite because they came back and said, ‘We already have a queer author.’

 

Grace

Wow. One? ‘A’?

 

Pip

Outraged.

And it sounds like I’m making this up. That really happened, but that was it.

And I was like, ‘Oh, okay. I didn’t realise that was a thing.’ I don’t know if they meant to tell me, but I just walked away from that and went, ‘Okay, well, I’m not here to tick a box for somebody. I’d rather just do this and tell my story the way I want to tell it.’

And there are plenty of queer voices that want to tell a story. So I’m just one of them.

 

Grace

That’s beautiful. I love that.

And it’s such a… Pyg is such a joyous, wacky, wild, like, ride of a novel. At every point, I was like, ‘No way, I love it.’

So genuinely, that’s so cool. And I’m so pleased that it’s in print, though. It’s beautiful.

I was thinking, in terms of your future novels, you mentioned having a kind of new approach. Is there anything that you’re trying out, this kind of wild or a departure from Pyg, as you said you’re doing the past tense and first person?

Are there any style or themes that you’re exploring now?

 

Pip

Yeah, so I’m doing something with the next book.

I don’t want to give spoilers too much because it is quite a… it’s going to be a bit of a twist in the story.

But it’s another book in that I’m calling it my Leamington Bloom series.

So it’s another book in the Leamington Bloom series because they’re all transformation stories. They all bloom.

And this book is a character from Chameleon, and it’s going to be about her relationship. So she is a lawyer. She’s picked up a particularly challenging case because of her circumstances.

So one, I’ve never written a lawyer before. I don’t really know what lawyers do apart from lawy stuff.

So I’ve got a lot of research to do to make that sound convincing.

Mind you, to be fair, Ash was a doctor and I had no idea what doctors did.

So that was also fun.

 

Grace

It felt convincing.

 

Pip

Excellent.

I did get some medical people. So I had a paramedic and a former nurse reviewing it to make sure I hadn’t said anything really stupid.

Absolutely, I’m like, ‘No, you are my ARC team. Tell me if there’s anything ridiculous.’

So yeah, with this next book, I’ve got the lawyer element, but then I’ve also got another element of the story which is exploring a different, let’s just say, a gender transition that I have no experience of.

But I know there are people in my community that have, so lean into sensitivity readers to make sure that I get that right.

But I feel like it’s a really important story for me to tell.

So yeah, I’m looking forward to writing it. I’m nervous about writing it because I could easily get this wrong.

But yeah, when I finished Chameleon, I said to my mum, ‘I’ve got three stories that are kind of sitting here now that I’m thinking about writing. This one, this one, or this one.’

And she went with the one that I’ve picked.

And I thought it was… I didn’t think it was the one she’d picked, but she picked that one. She’s like, ‘I really want to read that. I really want to understand that better.’

I was like, ‘So do I. Let’s do it.’

 

Grace

That’s so exciting.

And also, the sort of transgenerational aspect, the fact that your parent is interested in this story, is such a good sign as well.

So exciting. I can’t wait to read it.

 

Pip

I took my mum to a book event with me. We went to Coventry’s inaugural festival of books on Sunday.

And it was such a great event. We got to speak to so many people, but me and my mum have such banter between us. It was really funny.

We had this event and she said, ‘I’m going to make this your bestselling day ever.’

And she did. She doubled my sales.

I was like, unbelievable. Now I can’t talk to her. I can’t fit her in a room with her because her head’s so big.

 

Grace

That’s amazing. She should take commission.

 

Pip

She’s incredible.

Yeah, oh absolutely. She wouldn’t take anything, but I did buy her some flowers to say thank you for her contribution.

But she’s never coming to an event again now because she’s just impossible.

 

Grace

That’s so fun.

And also great to have, like, a champion in the room as well.

That’s incredible.

And also, I was thinking, you said the sort of nervousness of writing a new story that you might not have personal experience with is such a useful thing to have as well, because I imagine it will propel you forward to doing tons of research and interviewing people.

And yeah, is that something that you find useful, nervousness?

 

Pip

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I had it a bit with Pyg because Ash’s background is Sikh. So she’s a South Asian character, or of South Asian descent.

And I had sensitivity readers. So I was, like, every step of the way.

I remember she was originally going to send her and Alice to a wedding. It ended up being an engagement party because Sikh weddings are so complicated.

And I just bottled it. I was like, ‘I cannot do this. I cannot get this right.’

So I just ended up learning from that experience and dialling it back because, like, my friend was like, ‘Yeah, they’re going to be there for four days.’

And I’m like, ‘No, they’re not. They’re absolutely not.’

Like, ‘She’s going to have to wear this.’

I’m like, ‘She’s not wearing that.’

So, for plot reasons, it’s an engagement party. So I bottled out.

But I went to my friend’s house and we had, like, desi tea and she made me food, just trying to live the experience of what my character would have had.

And I was like, ‘Okay, now I need you to tell me stories about your parents.’

So I’m like the weirdest friend now. I ask such strange questions.

 

Grace

You’re like, ‘I’m Louis Theroux now.’

 

Pip

So yeah, I’m looking forward to doing the same with this one.

But I think it’s going to be a lot more… I’m going to have to handle it a lot more sensitively.

And I think it probably is going to be a little… it can be insightful because the whole idea of a trans ideology is challenging at the moment.

There is no ideology. It’s somebody’s identity.

But, you know, I need to handle that in a way that isn’t going to incite hate crimes towards me or anybody in the community.

So, if you don’t like it, don’t read it.

That’s a point I’m going to make, but anyway.

 

Grace

On a T-shirt, maybe.

Well, I can’t wait to read it, and I can’t wait to read Chameleon as well.

And the characters in this fourth novel, would it be? Are they similar in theme to the others, or are they completely new? Is this a new world?

 

Pip

No, same world.

So third book in the Leamington Bloom series.

Yeah, so third book in that series. Same world.

The character is in Chameleon, and she’s a larger-than-life character in Chameleon. Everyone loves her, or people in reviews have loved her so far.

So I think she’ll be a lot of fun to write, a lot of fun to spend time with.

And I think I need that after Chameleon. There were times writing that where I was like, ‘Oh, this is hard,’ because this character has been through a lot.

So yeah, it’s going to be good.

I think the voice and the tone of it will be the same. And yeah, I think you’ll see her voice coming through.

So it will feel like, I suppose, spending a bit more time back in a familiar place with an old friend, hopefully.

 

Grace

Love that. That’s incredible. That’s beautiful.

In terms of Pyg, where would you sort of compare it to similar titles right now in the market, just so people have a kind of idea who might be coming new to it, what it’s like?

 

Pip

Oh, yeah, that’s a tough one.

 

Grace

Yeah, sorry, I put you on the spot there.

 

Pip

I did have some comp titles for it because I don’t think it’s anything… I don’t think it’s like anything I’ve ever read before.

 

Grace

That’s what I was thinking.

I was like, ‘Oh my goodness, pitching it in terms of similar ones must be really difficult,’ because you think it’s going to be magical realism, and then it takes this really cool turn where it’s more psychological and you’re in George’s head.

 

Pip

Yeah, that’s it.

I mean, one of the ideas I’ve got lurking in my head is actually a magical realism story. I love Matt Haig, like, and I love how his stories are so grounded in reality, but then they just take this twist and you’re like, ‘Whoa, what’s happening?’

Like, I want to do that.

But yeah, what is it? What is it like?

So my first novel, I had some great comp titles for, but no, I don’t know.

That’s the other beauty of being independent. I don’t have to worry too much about comp titles.

But it would be useful to have it. Like, ‘If you enjoyed this, you might enjoy this.’

I don’t know.

 

Grace

No, but honestly, I think they’ll read the sort of… they’ll be in.

You know, it’s a standalone. You don’t need it, as you said.

 

Pip

I hit my pitch now when I go to book events and I’m trying to sell it to people who are just walking past.

I’ve got a little stand, and I’ve got, like, ‘chaos in heels’ as my headline.

And I’ll be like, ‘You know, if you can relate to being a hot mess, if you can relate to ever having escaped a toxic ex — a toxic ex — and, you know, you’re having just a terrible night and you find a man in the road but you have to help him… does that feel like a bit of you?’

And they’re like, ‘Yeah, that’s exactly what I do. Yeah, that’s me. That’s me. Toxic ex, heels. Yeah, cool.’

And they’ll buy it.

So that just kind of seems to work.

I also did just randomly shout at somebody — not this book event I was just at, but the one before.

I was bored at the end of the day and thought, ‘I can’t be bothered to go through the pitch.’

He was walking past, looked like he was going to carry on, and I just went, ‘Lesbians.’

And he came and bought it, and the other two books.

So I’m like, excellent.

 

Grace

Sweet.

That’s exactly what he wanted.

He’s like, ‘I’m here.’

Wow, that’s really fun.

 

Pip

Sure, I’m here for that.

Okay, it might not be my target audience, but anyway, have it, enjoy it.

 

Grace

But that’s something else I was appreciating.

Just that, I guess, there are so few lesbian novels out there in general.

 

Pip

Yeah, you’d be surprised, Grace. You’d be very surprised.

 

Grace

Well, if it’s out there, I’m reading it.

 

Pip

Yeah, I mean, I was surprised.

So I basically uncovered this whole community. I say I uncovered it — I discovered this community when I started writing sapphic fiction.

And there is so much, and it’s beautiful, and it’s so diverse.

Like, there’s a website called iheartsapphic.com, which is like a database. And honestly, you can mood read sapphic fiction now.

If you fancy some magical realism, if you fancy some sci-fi or some cosy fantasy, it’s everything.

Like, yeah, it is this… loads of independent authors.

Only very few choose to go traditional, but it’s becoming more of a prominent genre.

We have your enemies-to-lovers, your Heated Rivalry. We have those.

We have books about sport. All of it. Sports romance is the thing.

 

Grace

Pyg took me to the I Heart Sapphic website, just sort of researching for it.

And so I found myself surrounded by all these amazing books that I’d never heard of before. And I’m so pleased I did.

So thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it’s really incredible.

And again, another asset of independent publishing is that there’s such a range.

 

Pip

For sure. Definitely.

Yeah, it’s a great community, and I think I’m very, very humbled and grateful to be a part of it.

And I’m actually off to a conference in the States next — no, the week after next — with the Golden Crown Literary Society, which is really cool.

Again, another awesome society to be a part of.

And they have this little — well, little, it’s quite big actually, I say little — awards thing as well.

So it’s kind of like the Oscars for sapphic fiction.

Pyg‘s audiobook is up for a Goldie Award, which is really exciting.

 

Grace

Oh my goodness. Congratulations.

And that must be so fun to be in that community and to witness their reactions live.

So, so cool.

 

Pip

Yeah, absolutely. It’s so cool.

And there’s panels, and there’s all sorts of writing workshops and readings.

And yeah, I’m up for it all. I’m there for it all. I’m involved in everything.

 

Grace

It’s amazing. I love that.

And again, you really got a feel for that in Pyg, just the sort of wealth of community influences, especially even reading your acknowledgements and seeing the beta readers and sensitivity readers mentioned.

You are sort of really involved, and it’s so beautiful, and you can tell in the best way.

Thank you for writing it.

So your writing routine, is it very entrenched? Do you have a strict set timing? You mentioned the 15-minute thing, or is it kind of relaxed?

 

Pip

So up until recently, I only started doing sprints.

But I work full time, so I try to delineate myself from my workspace. I feel like it’s really important to get into a different physical space.

Like, nothing creative comes from somewhere where you’ve been sitting on conference calls.

So I move to a different space, a different physical location. I feel like it gets me in a different headspace.

Make myself a cup of tea, which inevitably I let go cold.

And yeah, I just get into a different vibe.

But my process itself is… I’ve just started the sprints. Before that, I just used to write for as long as I could until I got hungry, or my limbs went numb, or I needed to pick my wife up from the train station.

Any of the above.

 

Grace

Perfect. That’s great.

Thank you so much for answering, and thank you so much for being here.

 

Pip

Thank you very much for inviting me along. It’s been lovely chatting to you.